Creativity coach Dr. Pragya Agarwal, PhD., is the founder of Hedge & Hog Prints and The Art Tiffen. The mother of three talks about how she suffered from workplace bullying, severe anxiety and depression. Pragya says it got so bad that she almost had a breakdown, and eventually quit her job. One day, she took an art class and discovered the healing it brought her. She tells how art and creativity helped her with her anxiety and depression, and brought her peace and calm. Now, she campaigns for creativity and mental health, aiming to break the stigma of mental health in Southeast Asian communities.
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If you prefer to read, here’s a transcript of the interview!
Pragya: 00:01 I really believe in the philosophy of giving things a go and there are lots of things that wouldn’t have happened to me if I hadn’t just taken the leap and just being sometimes quite stupid, brave enough to just to say, oh, I’ll do it, or I want to do this and believe in myself, and I think that self belief, just give it a go. What’s the worst that can happen? It’s something that I really want to instill in my children.
Kathy: 00:31 Hello and welcome to The Inspire Cafe Podcast where we bring you conversations and inspirational stories of people overcoming adversity and then how they came out of it transformed with a positive outlook or outcome. People are incredibly resilient and we need to hear more of their stories. This is Kathy De La Torre.
Kathy: 00:57 Hello and welcome to The Inspire Cafe Podcast. Today we are joined with creativity coach Dr. Pragya Agarwal. She’s the founder of Hedge & Hog Prints and The Art Tiffin, the mother of three talks about how she went through workplace bullying and she suffered severe anxiety and depression. Pragya says it got so bad that she almost had a breakdown and eventually quit her job. But one day she took an art class and discovered the healing it brought her. She tells how art and creativity helped her with her anxiety and depression and brought her peace and calm. Now she campaigns for creativity and mental health, aiming to break the stigma of mental health in Southeast Asian communities. We’ll have links for you to connect with Pragya and also a transcript of this interview on our website, TheInspireCafe.com. Also feel free to connect with us there too on facebook, instagram, and twitter. Okay. Let’s get back to Pragya’s story.
Kathy: 00:57 Pragya, the first article I read that you wrote that was published in the Guardian. It was a letter to your younger self and what I took from it was that this was very personal and it showed a lot of vulnerability on your part. What inspired you to write it?
Pragya: 02:14 I think it was quite a big moment for me because until then I hadn’t really ever talked about what I’d been through. Not even to people close to me. Not even to my family. and I just kept everything very close to my heart. I just pretended that things are okay. I, I pretended I was this super woman, wonder woman who could deal with everything and I’ve just, yeah, I just didn’t show any weakness or vulnerability or tried not to. Um, I think by les started my social enterprise, The Art Tiffin and I just kind of took a resolution that I’m going to be more open about my own journey and experience and I think my story because my unique story makes me and shapes me who I am today. And I thought it was really, really important for me to talk about that. But I think it was also a huge kind of a mind shift for me because the moment I put it out on paper it kind of became real.
Kathy: 03:12 And it also made me feel very positive about the future and really gain a lot of inner strength. Realizing what I’d been through and what I’ve overcome and how far I’ve come. So it was just hugely important for me. Um, yeah, it was, it was quite difficult to share these, these vulnerable moments and such a personal story, but I think it was really important for me to tell my story.
Kathy: 03:37 And it was a wonderful story and wonderful article. I have some more questions actually about it. You wrote that you were married early into a traditional Indian family where you were supposed to have no opinions and you were wondering where your life was heading and then you got a scholarship for a phd to study in the UK. It sounded like it was a huge decision because you also shared that part of that decision was to leave your little daughter behind with your parents.
Pragya: 04:07 And I, I can’t imagine how hard that was to make that decision. How old was your daughter at the time and how long did you live apart?
Pragya: 04:16 Um, yeah, so she was around four years old and three or 4 years old. And um, when I first came here to do my masters, it was a British Council fellowship and then some, I was offered a phd and I suppose already in my mind I was trying to make a decision about creating a life better life for us, for me and for her and it seemed natural for me to go for this opportunity and, and my parents were taking care of her and I spoke to her every night and I visited, went back to India as often as I could. It was really tough. I mean she like brought her over a few times but I couldn’t give her that stability at the time and I couldn’t, I didn’t have the financial resources to and or the time or the space here.
Pragya: 05:04 So it was tough. She was very incredibly strong and brave. She even came over when I was actually writing my, finishing my phd and she was only like five or six years old or something, six, seven. And she actually helped me. I gave her the sheets for my references and he helped me double check which references were being repeated and cross them out. I was really, I, I dedicated my phd to her because it wouldn’t have been possible without her.
Kathy: 05:31 She was a good assistant.
Pragya: 05:33 Yeah, she is wonderful. She’s a wonderfully strong person. Yes.
Kathy: 05:37 Right. And you included, you continued on and that you and your daughter lived together in a tiny apartment. You scrimped and saved a. At this time you were a single parent juggling between getting your daughter acclimated to a new culture and also you working at your job and then you wrote that you experienced workplace bullying and that it got so bad that you almost had a breakdown. It broke your spirit and you had to quit. What happened?
Pragya: 06:08 Um, yes. So I’ve, as climbing up the academic ladder quite fast, I wanted to, um, I was really good at my job. I am a really strong researcher. I was publishing lots, I was writing lots. my phd, had been very well received internationally. And so I was being invited to conferences and things while she was here. She was getting used to a new culture, new school and everything, and she was finding it particularly hard and so I had to spend more and more time with her. The thing with academia is that I was still in quite a male dominated department and there are certain cultural practices or practices or practices that are ingrained in these places were places and it’s very hard for somebody to just come in, especially as a female, as a woman of color and somebody who’s relatively young to come into a senior academic position and to say assertively what I want and also to be seen as a parent.
Pragya: 07:06 I think it’s becoming more normal and people are beginning to normalize that an academic is a parent as well, but at that particular moment of time it wasn’t considered very professional If I had to bring my child and if she was ill or she was away from school or if she was on leave or school holiday, what do you do? Childcare options are pretty expensive. You don’t often want to just leave your child in childcare for the whole day while you have to work on and meetings were arranged at very last moment in the evenings or early in the morning or or things like that and I think. I think workplaces are pretty tough for women in general. Academia especially and also for for senior academics and workplaces, but all as a parent, I think it is incredibly hard and I have a group called mothers in academia now and I’m talking about more about mental health and about the challenges mother’s faced in academic workplaces.
Pragya: 08:03 Yes. So all this kind of accumulated and somebody who was supposed to be in senior to me and my line leader leader and my mentor, so I didn’t realize it was workplace bullying because as I said in a couple of articles, I wrote about it. Now that people have these myths about workplace bullying, you often think if you’re in a seated position, you cannot be bullied. It happens in playgrounds. Often you give the person the benefit of doubt saying that they probably mean well, they didn’t mean it like that. And over a long time I did that and it, it can be bullying is like that, it breaks the person’s spirit slowly and gradually when they start doubting everything they do and their instinct as well. And that was happening to me and I realized I was just becoming this really unconfident person who is scared of even opening an email her just something, it would just, I would just broke down in tears and I hated going into work.
Pragya: 09:00 I hated meeting people or seeing people of just becoming this nervous wreck and very anxious and it was just unlike me. I was a super confident person, was really strong and who had huge resilience and would just get on with things. So, um, that was a crucial moment where we realized as a family that it was impacting everything in our lives, my mental health, my partner’s for mental health, my child’s mental health, everything in our relationship and our family’s wellbeing. So I had to take a break from academia at that particular moment of time. Full time academia at least. Yes.
Kathy: 09:35 So would you say that the bullying was more focused on you being a woman, a mother, or was it cultural differences?
Pragya: 09:44 I think it was just everything. I think maybe it was personal, maybe it was, as I said, being coming into a department or the workplace as a, as a woman who is relatively young as a senior in a senior role, it doesn’t sit well with men especially because men don’t like to be a, to have somebody senior to them as a woman and every action is under scrutiny.
Pragya: 10:06 They were certain, as I said, practices were very ingrained in that place where people would stay till eight or nine just to prove that they were working very hard or send emails at one or two in the morning just to prove that they were working until that time. And those kinds of toxic practices create a culture where if you don’t conform to it, you’re just seen as an outsider or somebody who’s not pulling their weight.
Kathy: 10:31 I see. I see. Okay. So you quit your job and in hindsight seems like that was a really good decision for you.
Pragya: 10:39 Yes, I think so.
Kathy: 10:40 Yeah, okay. So you’ve said that art and creativity helped you with your anxiety and depression. Can you explain how it helped you?
Pragya: 10:51 Yeah, So I’d always been, um, uh, because I had a background in architecture had always been interested in art and creativity and just doing things by hand or just just taking pleasure and creativity even if it’s writing or cooking or anything like that.
Pragya: 11:07 I didn’t naturally link creativity and mental health and wellbeing or happiness, but I always knew that whenever I did something like that I felt incredibly proud and happy about it, but I didn’t make that link. But during this period, it was a tough moment, time and I was trying to. I was still, I mean like I was doing adjunct teaching and I was teaching for other universities part time I was mentoring and coaching students who wanted to get into Oxbridge, and other Russell group leading universities here. I was still writing some research papers and book chapters that I was invited to do. So I was doing these things as kind of a freelancer and working from home. But then I did this printmaking course and just to make a present for my husband one Christmas just before and I got really hooked into it and I realized I had never felt so happy because that moment where I would just sit on my kitchen table and create a line of paint and just carving.
Pragya: 12:04 It was so meditative and so mindful and I just forgot about everything, all the worries. And I started doing more research into neuroscience and psychology about what’s happening in our brains when we are being creative. And that kind of started my whole interest in it.
Kathy: 12:19 That was really interesting. So would you say that allowing yourself the time to be creative and explore art was what helped you with your anxiety and depression? Or was it also something else?
Pragya: 12:31 I think it was a combination of a number of things. Um, and just having the time and space away from something that I put so much time and effort in all through my life. I was kind of in this box of being an academic and at this label and something that I, that I assigned my self esteem and identity too, so taking time away from the role was tough, but it also made me reevaluate my life and my goals and my aims and about what I really enjoyed and as I said I was mentoring and tutoring people and having this personal contact and making a difference in somebody’s life.
Pragya: 13:10 It just made me feel like I really want to make some positive difference in this world and do something more meaningful. I need to find my purpose and not using cliches, but yes, I need to find my why and about what really makes me happy. So it was a combination of all these things. Sometimes having time and space, it’ll be your stepping away from something that we have been involved with for a very long time, but it might be proving toxic with. Might be proving a. creating an unhappiness in our lives can be therapeutic. And that’s. I think that having the time and space to explore my other interests and my passions was very crucial.
Kathy: 13:46 Interesting. I saw your TedX talk and you talked about creativity, that we’re all creative and you said that it’s important to find and achieve that quote unquote sweet spot and that to be comfortable enough to enjoy the challenge but find it challenging enough to not be too comfortable.
Pragya: 14:08 It’s a mouthful. Um, no, I think that’s yes. I firmly believe and, and the whole ethos of my social enterprise is based on the fact that everybody’s born creative and it’s proven that and it’s by shown by studies that children are very confident. Creativity is just when we start judging them and they’d been put in these boxes and label and being told what is possible and what is not possible and they being assigned these labels whether you’re sporty or whether you are artistic, that they start doubting themselves and doubting their instincts and becoming unconfident. And just as I talk about in my tedx talk as well, this study done by NASA. This longetudinally study showed our children from the between the age of four and 10 had had this massively reduced sense of creative confidence. Yes, and so in being about challenging and comfortable I think is sometimes people tell me I’m not creative and we are running this creativity challenge in my facebook group called unleash your creativity and it’s all about finding these five, 10 minutes of these creative thinking exercises.
Pragya: 15:11 We’re focused on the process rather than the end result. So it does kind of making you think it’s encouraging you to think outside the box so it is challenging, but if it’s too challenging that sometimes people just give it up and they. They fall at the first hurdle so to speak. They wouldn’t take it farther along and they might just think, oh, I’m not good enough at this, so you have to be able to find something that’s just about challenging to make us think outside the box and make us think a bit more than what we’re used to but not be too challenging that find it too difficult. So I think that balance between comfort and challenges really important.
Kathy: 15:46 I like that. Just finding it a little bit uncomfortable enough, but then you’re still have that desire to continue on.
Pragya: 15:57 Yeah, I think when we’re uncomfortable we discover our resilience and our inner strength, so I think it’s really important to be uncomfortable as well sometimes.
Kathy: 16:03 You’ve written a lot of other articles including about stress and you wrote a very thought provoking question. Do we equate busy with being stressed or does being stressed make us feel more productive? So how do we identify whether it’s stress versus something else?
Pragya: 16:23 Yeah. I think I was kind of reflecting on the fact that how I might relationship with stresses because sometimes I feel like I do the best work when I’m under pressure and I have a deadline and my relationship with stress has made me reflect on how sometimes I find that I am most productive when I’m really stressed or anxious and I’m nearing a deadline and it’s crunch time, but I also talk about how there are different symptoms and triggers that are more than just stress.
Pragya: 16:54 It is a sign of deeper anxiety or sign of deeper mental health problems and I think it’s very important for all of us to recognize that individual symptoms and triggers where it becomes uncontrollable or unmanageable and it’s not healthy stress because a bit of adrenaline is really good for productivity, but sometimes when you are continual state of stress, yeah, there’s science to show that it can alter our mental state and also cause physical changes as well. So I think all of us have individual triggers and I think it’s really important to recognize when we more than just just normal stress.
Kathy: 17:33 Yeah. I think we all have a level of stress and everybody’s different and we all accept it as a natural thing in life.
Pragya: 17:45 Yes. and Yeah, I think that’s why I thought it was really important to talk about stress because often we talk about stress sometimes as to be proud of it or we are.
Pragya: 17:53 I’m really stressed, or yes, life is very stressful at the moment and we just throw these terms around, but we don’t realize what deeper impact stress has on our lives and our health and our relationships. Everything, so I think it’s really important to recognize that stress has a deeper impact than we often consider and so I think it’s really important to manage it.
Kathy: 18:17 You’ve also talked about growing up in India and that no one talked about mental health. You wrote quote, it was considered a rich white person’s illness. Why do you think there is that idea about mental health?
Pragya: 18:35 I’m trying to unravel that with this campaign that just recently launched called daisy mental health, which dacey means and just go locally. Somebody who’s a person of color from Southeast Asian communities and I think it’s a cultural thing where people don’t talk about mental health or don’t consider it important.
Pragya: 18:57 For instance, when I had my first daughter, it was a very traumatic birth and a traumatic pregnancy and after that I felt extremely low. Nobody talked to me about my mental health. Yes, I had support and everybody’s looking after my physical health, but the whole idea was to get better and if I ever talked about feeling anxious or not feeling happy, I was told but you have everything. What is there to worry about? So I think that attitude still there, if you have everything, there’s nothing to worry about and you don’t talk about these things because it’s a sign of weakness, what’s wrong with you kind of a thing and I think people are beginning to talk a little bit more about it, but there’s a huge stigma associated with it still and I hope to find out more. I hope to speak to more community members and just different generations about how maybe or attitudes are changing perhaps, but there are certain things within the Asian communities that people don’t talk about and attitudes are not changing that much, but it’s a huge generational thing as well and it’s a huge struggle between generations. So I’m just opening up that conversation will be really important.
Kathy: 20:05 That must have been very frustrating to have all these feelings and not feeling like you can openly talk about what you’re going through.
Pragya: 20:12 Yes. I think part of that kind of lead to me keeping everything under wraps, but that’s just my personality as well. But still I felt like guilty for feeling like that sometimes a fulfilling and happy and for feeling low and you don’t recognize the signs or the symptoms and you feel like, okay, I shouldn’t, shouldn’t be feeling like that. I have nothing to feel sorry about or sad about because I have absolutely everything. I should be really pleased to have a healthy child and a happy family and I’m doing so well in my life and I think that kind of was one of the things that kind of led me to keeping everything very close to my heart and not talking about it, which I think internalize that in turn caused more problems and that’s where writing the article last year was really a huge step for me
Kathy: 21:04 And I don’t know about you, but there’s something very comforting knowing that there are other people going through the same thing that you are and just knowing that can be a big relief.
Pragya: 21:16 Yeah. I think what you say is really true. I think it’s really important to have that sense of community because often part of sometimes having depression or anxiety or any other mental health, mental illness can be a very isolating experience and just knowing that other people are sharing your experiences or if they are going through the same thing. Having this sense of community and support is really important. I think that’s one of the things why I was so open about my story and authentic as well because I think it’s really important for me to say that yes, I have gone through this and I am still. I still have bad days sometimes and good days and I think it’s about putting yourself out there, the most authentic, real you so that people can relate to you and also from a sense of kinship.
Kathy: 22:09 A sense of kinship. Absolutely. So Pragya, Looping back to that first article we talked about after you wrote that letter to your younger self and knowing what you know today and where you are today, would you do it all over again?
Pragya: 22:28 No, I think not. No. I don’t believe in going back. I don’t believe that we can do it better the second time around. I think we are shaped by experiences. I wouldn’t be the same person if I hadn’t gone through those experiences and that shaped me and my family and my relationships and everything around me. So that is my reality. So, and who knows how I do it now, um, we’re shaped by the people around us in our context as well, like it’s easy to look back and regret or say, Oh, wish I had done that and what ifs and all those questions. But I think we can only look ahead and talk about how our past has going to shape our present and future.
Kathy: 23:10 Yes. Okay. So I understand you have three daughters and one is about to graduate from Cambridge. Congratulations to you and her. Thank you so much. And you have two year old twins. Based on your experiences, is there one lesson that you would like to instill in or leave with your daughters?
Pragya: 23:36 Um, I think I try to do this with my eldest as well and I think I’ve tried to be a role model or show her through actions rather than just two words about her resilience is really, really important in life and I think the more resilient we are, we can bounce back from any set back and we can deal with mistakes and we can deal with any kind of obstacles in our path and having that inner strength is really important. But also I really believe in the philosophy of giving things a go and there are lots of things that I wouldn’t have happened to me if I hadn’t just taken that leap and just being sometimes quite stupid, brave enough to just to say, oh, I’ll do it, or I want to do this and believe in myself. And I think that self belief, just give it a go. What’s the worst that can happen is something that I really want to instill in my children.
Kathy: 24:29 Uh, that’s a good one. Just give it a go. Yes. Pragya, if someone is out there listening and is suffering from depression or anxiety or worry. What advice would you like to share with them?
Pragya: 24:45 So I’m not a therapist, but I can only talk from my own personal experiences that I think it’s really important to talk to somebody. Anybody you trust, anybody who’s close to you, a professional seek help and it’s okay to accept and acknowledge it. It’s not a sign of weakness. It’s not something wrong with you. It’s not something to feel ashamed or guilty about. Everybody can go through these feelings and it’s important to talk about them and it’s important to seek help and it’s important to take action because that’s the most important thing that’s taking action because that’s in your control. You can decide what you want to do with it and what do you want to do about it. So I think that’s what I have learned through my experience.
Kathy: 25:35 Okay, good. Take action. Don’t keep it to yourself.
Pragya: 25:35 Yes.
Kathy: 25:41 Getting back to your story, after you quit your job, I believe you said you started lecturing and tutoring students, teaching students to chase their dreams and be creative and then you started to get actually a waiting list of students and parents who drove hours to work with you and you wrote that your success surprised you. What was most surprising to you about all that?
Pragya: 26:08 I suppose we all. I think because I had gone through that phase where I had become very, from gone being a very confident person and having a lot of self belief to somebody who was quite anxious and unconfident and didn’t believe in myself and trust my instinct. So then this happens and I just started that because I really. Somebody asked me maybe a family friend to tutor or coach their child who is going through university admissions or oxbridge interviews and then I slowly. It’s spread word of mouth and I was so busy from like nine to nine every day and, and it, it, it surprised me because I hadn’t expected it. I hadn’t taught that I was, I knew I was good at it, but I didn’t expect it to grow so much and I didn’t expect for people to really think that yes, I was making a difference in their lives and I think that really made me quite emotional to know that I was making a difference in people’s lives.
Pragya: 27:14 That’s wonderful. I’m really happy to hear that. Okay, so let’s talk about your businesses. What is the name of your first business? The print business and what kind of prints are we talking about? It’s called Hedge & Hog Prints and it’s an interesting story because I wanted it to be, if it’s inspired by my time I spent as a single parent with my eldest. We used to make silly stories. She was always very creative and creativity was a huge part for us to do things together and bond, but also something that inspired in her from a very young age. We made this story about this hedgehog and this pig, that hog pig was stuck in a bush and the hedgehog rescued it and things like that. I just kind of by that because I wanted this business to reflect family values and something that brought people closer together and made that emotional connection.
Pragya: 28:02 So, so it’s called Hedge & Hog Prints and the website is hedgeandhogprints.com.
Kathy: 28:08 Okay. And what kind of prints are they are? Can you describe some of the products?
Pragya: 28:11 Yes, absolutely. So the first thing that I started making with lino cut prints and every print is unique because there’ll be slight differences in how you ink it and every print is handmade so it’s not just sometimes people think printing is like you printed with a printer but it’s actually that myth that it’s actually a handmade product and handmade artwork that you’re making in every bundle that is unique. And I also do workshops here for people as well, one to one and in groups and. But besides that I also have two illustrations, so I have greeting cards and stationery and, and other prints which are illustrated in style and some of them actually I use kind of empowering messages and inspiring messages.
Pragya: 28:58 So for instance, some of my pencils have inspiring messages like Beautiful and Bossy and Fabulous and Focus, so you don’t have to be one or the other. You can be as a young girl and growing up as a woman, you can be both, you can be beautiful, but you can be bossy and bossy is not a bad word, which is often thought of. And so
Kathy: 28:58 I like that.
Pragya: 29:19 Yeah, that’s been a very, very popular one. And in fact it was really, it’s like a stocking filler. They’re a set of five pencils and just before Christmas they were bought by some Hollywood celebrities, a list celebrities. And I was quite shocked to receive this order from them.
Kathy: 29:19 Congratulations.
Pragya: 29:35 Yes. So it was quite a surprise. Um, but also, um, I have prints which, uh, which show all the inspiring women in history and it shows how far we’ve come, but kind of how far still we have to go. So it’s all these inspiring feminist because I identify as a feminist feminine prints.
Kathy: 29:58 All right, let’s talk about your other business.
Pragya: 30:02 Yes. So The Art Tiffin is a social enterprise and I started it after my twins were born. It is based around the notion of creativity and mental health, so how creativity can be used to support mental health and wellbeing and so we bring a gift boxes, art boxes and subscriptions which help encourage people to take care of themselves. So self care and self compassion I think is the key word. I call them creative hugs in a box when people are feeling lonely or isolated and lost, just giving this kind of inspiration to them to to look after themselves. And the social impact is in that We donate to mental health charities from the profits we make, we talk and speak about creativity in mental health.
Pragya: 30:45 But also the other impact is that we will campaign for Vegan and cruelty free art materials, which is not as much known as cruelty free beauty products or food. So that’s the kind of three pronged social impact as a social enterprise. And also I really believe that creativity has to be fostered from a young age and children’s. I have a facebook group called raising creative kids and an art explorer program for children, which is all about introducing them to a particular artist every month through the subscription.
Kathy: 31:14 Wonderful. Wow. I love that idea. The Art Tiffen sounds beautiful. What a great idea.
Pragya: 31:14 Thank you.
Kathy: 31:24 So Pragya. If people want to ask you questions or want to inquire directly with you, how can they get ahold of you?
Pragya: 31:30 Yes, absolutely. Just email me at hello@hedgeandhogprints.com. I am on facebook with The Art Tiffin and Hedge and Hog Prints so you can find these facebook pages and you can message me there, but also have a personal profile as Pragya Agarwal.
Pragya: 31:50 I’m on Linkedin as well. I’m on twitter and Instagram, but yes, feel free to connect and feel free to email me or connect on social media. I’ll be great to hear from you.
Kathy: 32:01 Okay, terrific. Again, we will post your links on our website as well so people will be able to get ahold of you. And yet is there anything that we missed that you would really love to share with the listeners?
Pragya: 32:14 Um, I think that just, I do believe that creative thinking and creativity can really create a difference, so from inspiring that in children but also in ourselves and taking five, 10 minutes every day for doing something creative with our hands or it makes us more engaged with the environment around us and makes us more resilient. It’s also a growth mindset, I think, which really important in life about the fact that, okay, we can make mistakes and it’d be okay because we can find alternative solutions. So it’s about creating innovation, creating happiness, it’s creating mental wellbeing and creating resilience. And I think that’s really important. So if you’d like to join the creativity challenge, join my facebook group called unleash your creativity, um, develop a creative habit and look forward to speaking to you. Thank you.
Kathy: 33:03 Wonderful. Well thank you so much for sharing your personal story and for all the work that you’re doing now. its truly a pleasure.
Pragya: 33:12 Thank you so much. Is a pleasure to speak to you.
Kathy: 33:16 You’ve been listening to The Inspire Cafe Podcast. You’ll find the show theinspirecafe.com, and also we’re on facebook, instagram, and twitter. If you’d like what you’re hearing, please subscribe and share with your friends. Until our next conversation, thank you for listening!